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Thread: calling all suspension geeks

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    calling all suspension geeks

    i Know it the age old question. but i havent really looked into it in awhile, and with technology changing i figured the options have changed.

    Heims or Joints???????

    I recently got a couple prices for both and im dealing with about $20 diffrence in price to go with eiither

    THESE


    Or

    THESE


    I know last time i looked into this it was a no brainier as my jeep was still a DD and saw the odd winter road and heim joints were best suited to the desert, but alot has changed in their design and materials and tech put into them.

    so whats the new skool train of thought on the situation? i know JJ's are rebuildable, but seriously who has actually had to rebuild one that was installed properly? JJ's only use 9/16 bolts where as the heims use 5/8 or 3/4 bolts. what say thee experts??
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    Evolution Joints say the experts, Wait what experts

    And lets face it, by the time you get around to needing them there will be some new even fancier swag out

    Perhaps you should be asking which have the best shelf life?!?

    At the end, I have nothing to add here that's very constructive except some motivation

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    - I have had to rebuild well used Johnny Joints
    - You can get larger 3" Johnny joints that use 5/8" bolts.
    - Have a look at the Ballistic Joints if you want pure beef AND rebuildable http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/...nd_p_1786.html
    - Ruff Stuff has the best deal on Chromo heims with built in misalignment. Probably the best strength per dollar.
    - Good Heims have been time proven to work well with DD's. You just have to select the correct units for the application. Not so easy to do if you don't know what you are looking for.

    The biggest factor will be your budget. There are several purpose-built heavy duty rod end options out there for our sport specifically. The quality is outstanding compared to 10 years ago. If you want the absolute strongest, highest quality rod ends, the JJ's are not it. But they are rebuildable, affordable and reasonably durable.
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    hence the problem, my suspension will not allow for a 3" JJ so they are out. the 2 quotes i got were for JJ and Ruffstuff heims and there is a $6 difference not making it any easier. everything i have read about Ballistic joints make me stay away from them (ok everything i read came from Evolution machine) and as much as i like the Evolution joints there isnt $100 per joint in the budget.

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    Comparing Ruff Stuff chromo Heims of a similar size to a JJ is apples and oranges regardless of cost. What do you want? If strength is critical, get the Ruff Stuff Heims....they are considerably stronger in every aspect. You can save a few bucks by using weld on JJ's as well - no need for thread bungs, jam nuts and the weld on JJ is less money than the threaded shank version. Most people don't need their links to be adjustable, anyway. If you truly feel that you are in a situation where you will start shearing a grade 8 9/16" bolt, stay away from JJ's. That said, I do not believe that is a factor, here. Even then, there are options to remedy that as well.

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    ok i realize its apples to oranges, if it were oranges to oranges it would be based on price point alone. my question is what does the apple offer vs the orange? do i think i will sheer off 9/16 bolts, probably not, but by paying an extra $6 to guarantee that it will not happen whats $6 adjustably is mandatory. the suspension is being built from the ground up so i need everything to be adjustable until i get it all set up and dialed in.

    so where we stand in this conversation so far is heims stronger.... that the only difference?

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    Cant grease a Ruff Stuff heim but the rebuildable joints are a pain in the ass and I have'2.625" in 3 different rebuildable flavours and will be replacing them with Ruff Stuff 4340 HT heims when the time comes. The retaining rings bow, the adjuster nuts dont stay tight or the clips pop out.... but you can grease em. Who cares, smear some sticky grease on the heims and be done with it.

    For the price you can buy a handfull of Ruff Stuff heims (on sale right now and you can still use the pirate discount) for the cost of one joint. They are interchangable with 2.625" (2 5/8") if you get the 1.25" heim with missalignment spacers.
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    the price difference between 16 ruffstuff heims vs 16 JJ's is $6 so far i have learned the heims are stronger, but from reading the JJ's will be a nicer ride when she does go down the road.
    other than that im having difficulty finding info supporting one over the other. i had RE rebuild ables back in the day and there was no way to actually get them apart after a couple years on the truck. will you run into the same issue with JJ's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by biohazard View Post
    ok i realize its apples to oranges, if it were oranges to oranges it would be based on price point alone. my question is what does the apple offer vs the orange? do i think i will sheer off 9/16 bolts, probably not, but by paying an extra $6 to guarantee that it will not happen whats $6 adjustably is mandatory. the suspension is being built from the ground up so i need everything to be adjustable until i get it all set up and dialed in.

    so where we stand in this conversation so far is heims stronger.... that the only difference?
    Well, those heims are stronger to be sure.

    It sounds like your mind is made up. If you want the most bang for your buck when it comes to strength and reliability for a bash buggy, the choice is clear.....the JJ's are NOT in the same league.

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    Check Pirate vedor section, Ruff Stuff has a promo right now for 1.25"heims with missalignment spacers, bungs and jams for $99 per pair.

    After a couple winters the rebuidable stuff will look the same as the heim if you coat them with a good sticky spray lube but will be sloppy and worn out. and the heim wont be. The plastic inserts just dont compare to solid metal in the heims.

    http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=979462

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    Quote Originally Posted by biohazard View Post
    the price difference between 16 ruffstuff heims vs 16 JJ's is $6 so far i have learned the heims are stronger, but from reading the JJ's will be a nicer ride when she does go down the road.
    Huh? How will a joint ride better than another? If you are going to take a buggy down the road with a V8, big tires and suspension and can honestly tell me that you can actually feel a difference between which joint transfers more road vibration to the chassis, I'll buy you a beer. The other side of that coin would be, do you even care? Is that really a factor here?

    Quote Originally Posted by biohazard View Post
    other than that im having difficulty finding info supporting one over the other. i had RE rebuild ables back in the day and there was no way to actually get them apart after a couple years on the truck. will you run into the same issue with JJ's.
    The RE joints have the large threaded spanner nut that can seize and be difficult to remove because it can be difficult to grip. JJ's do not have the spanner nut. No reason why you cannot take a JJ part again.....you should quick the sport if that is a factor! lol

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    ah see this is the path i wanted to take. so Ruffstuff for a dedicated "bash buggy" as you put it. what about a dual purpose buggy? if im driving to the beach will i regret using heims? i have never ran them which is why i started this thread. mind is not made up yet although i will admit im leaning towards the heims. for argument sake is there another option i have not perused? is te ride quality that different between a heim style vs joint?

    ---------- Post added at 10:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by CTD NUT View Post
    Huh? How will a joint ride better than another? If you are going to take a buggy down the road with a V8, big tires and suspension and can honestly tell me that you can actually feel a difference between which joint transfers more road vibration to the chassis, I'll buy you a beer. The other side of that coin would be, do you even care? Is that really a factor here?as i stated this is just what i have read





    The RE joints have the large threaded spanner nut that can seize and be difficult to remove because it can be difficult to grip. JJ's do not have the spanner nut. No reason why you cannot take a JJ part again.....you should quick the sport if that is a factor! lol
    anything to make maintenance easier is always a good thing in my book

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    There is no ride quality difference that you can feel. Big chunky tires, rumbly V8 and solid chasis with no body mounts will make even the softest rubber bushings useless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisbuilt View Post
    Check Pirate vedor section, Ruff Stuff has a promo right now for 1.25"heims with missalignment spacers, bungs and jams for $99 per pair.

    After a couple winters the rebuidable stuff will look the same as the heim if you coat them with a good sticky spray lube but will be sloppy and worn out. and the heim wont be. The plastic inserts just dont compare to solid metal in the heims.

    http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=979462
    this is why the debate is on, i have till the end of the day to order if i want the deal. give or take a couple of bucks it going to be $925 to my door for the ruffstuff heims

    ---------- Post added at 10:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 AM ----------

    keep this discussion going as im sure im not the only one questioning the difference. with more and more company's coming out with new products and great deals im sure people will have questions for sure.

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    The actual suspension ride quality will be a constant among any joint you use. And throw the road vibration issue out the window for good. You will not tell the difference whether you are at the beach or on the trail. There are too many other design considerations that are going to effectively nullify any perceived difference. I agree that a 4 seasons DD would be better served by a sealed and servicable joint....but that is only because of road salt more that anything else.

    I'm not sure what else there is to cover here. The Ruff Stuff joints offer the best of all the criteria you require.

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    3 years of road and about a dozen hard Wheelin trips per summer and my Johnnies are still tight enough I can't move them without a screw driver. The fk or qa1 or whatever they where 1.25"ers where toast. can't speak on the other fancy joints out there but I was sold hense why I swapped over to all Johnnies. As far as strength the 9/16 bolts held when i dukes'd it like 20 ft and sheered my 1/2" truss. Among other stupid shit I do. Lol. My 2 cents of real world experience.
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    My posts were not meant to discredit JJ's. Hell, I run them on my rig and have done so for many, many years with not intent to change that. They have served me well and are certainly the real deal. That said, I will give credit where it is due. Much has changed in the way of Heim joints. Premium materials and size increases along with designs intended for our application specifically, have resulted in joints that are superior in wear, strength and misalignment to a JJ. They are time proven to just plain work. Bio was pondering what the better joints for application were and the choice is easy. But that does not mean JJ's are bad just because there is something out there that is better.

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    Wasn't being defensive buddy. lol. Actually didn't even read all the responses yesterday just buzzed the post and fired off my experience. Like i said, no clue on the other fancy stuff out now.

    So.........whatcha get?

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    So I can't just use the good looking hiems I picked up from the TSC store.... damn
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    Tank, you can use them they are fine as long as you stay in the garage
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