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Thread: We are pleased to announce an OPP seminar at jk 101

  1. #41
    Jeannie's Avatar
    Jeannie is offline Christmas is for kids, Santa's on his way
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    YEAH!!!! good questions
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  2. #42
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    i completly support the opp and all its ways.
    i support the of4wD ( i pay a membership so i can go to camp nl)
    and i support all the positive things said on this forum.

    i dont want any trouble from anyone im just a little guy in a big pond of big fish please dont eat me.

  3. #43
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    Edited to remove equipment related question
    Last edited by Curt's_97; 05-01-2012 at 03:43 PM.
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  4. #44
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    I would like to start this post by stating that the OPP S.A.V.E. officer who will be doing the seminar will not be answering any HTA and/or equipment and/or MTO Safety Standards Certifcate and/or any MTO enforcement related questions before, during, or after the seminar. That is not the purpose of the seminar and those questions will only cause the seminar to lose focus and run longer than the time alloted.

    That being said I have the following for you all...

    After speaking directly with the OPP S.A.V.E. officer who will be running the seminar I have some statements/answers for you in regards to the questions pertaining to equipment and modifications and what is legal or not.

    In the most basic possible terms - ANY safety related item installed by the factory and/or federally tested and/or mandated to meet federal safety standards and/or required for a safety standards certificate inspection that doesn't function as intended and/or is damaged and/or removed, is cause for a ticket or report in notice by any law enforcement officer.

    This statement means that you COULD get a ticket but does not necessarily mean that you will.

    As for modifications of equipment/parts/structure of a vehicle and liability, any modification or removal of any part of a vehicle where that modification or removal has not been thoroughly tested by a laboratory to meet or exceed federal safety standards could potentially open you up for liability.

    Again, this statement means that you COULD get a ticket and/or be held liable but does not necessarily mean that you will.

    Some examples...

    5 point harnesses, although a 5 point harness may be considered safer than a factory installed 3 point (or 2 point) seat belt, your 5 point harness (and more specifically the installation) has not been tested to the same federal standards as the factory installed 3 point (or 2 point) seat belt, therefore it is not legal and opens you up to liability. You can still install 5 point harnesses, but your seat belts as equipped from factory (3 point for most vehicles, 2 point for older vehicles) must remain in place and be used while driving on roads, this includes access and logging roads on your way to and from trails.

    Roll cages, OEM installed "roll bars/cages" have been thoroughly tested in a laboratory to federal safety standards, your modified factory cage, or manufactured and installed cage, or home built cage have not been through the same testing and certification, therefore it is not legal and opens you up to liability.

    Aftermarket rear bumpers, many of them have receiver tubes welded in and could potentially be used for towing, however, most are not tested to federal standards to be rated for towing, towing with these bumpers is not legal and opens yourself up for liability.

    Even those modifications that most of us would deem to be for safety, may be safer for those in the vehicle, but may be the opposite for those outside your vehicle...take for example an aftermarket front bumper that is built to be stronger than the factory bumper, or a frame that has plates welded to it to make it stronger than factory...these items may compromise factory built and federally tested crumple zones and by doing so your vehicle may cause more damage and injury in an accident than your vehicle would have if it was stock as built and tested from the factory, again these modifications are not legal and open you up for liability.

    There are too many variables involved to be able to address each specific question or item directly, but to apply a blanket statement; If it was there from the factory, it better still be there in an unmodified state and functioning as intended by the factory and tested to federal safety standards.

    As has already been said, if items have been removed and/or modified and/or damaged and are no longer functioning as intended by factory and/or as tested to federal standards then you COULD get a ticket but it doesn't mean you will.

    If you wish to find out how your vehicle would do in an inspection, you must contact an MTO inspector or QUALIFIED ENFORCEMENT OFFICER and have them look over your vehicle and/or ask the questions directly to them.

    All vehicles need most of the items covered in the equipment related questions that have already been asked in this thread and covered in the above statements for HTA safety, but ALL of those items are mandated by federal motor vehicle safety standards and must meet those standards to be used on a Canadian road.

    Again I would like to stress that all of these things do not necessarily mean you are going to get a ticket, but it is a possibility.

    More importantly is the case of circumstances where a collision occurs and there is an injury or fatality.

    In that type of situation you would potentially be held liable not only for criminal offences up to and including criminal negligence causing injury and/or criminal negligence causing death (the section of criminal code covering criminal negligence is quoted below) but there would also be the potential that you would be held liable civilly and sued by any person involved in the situation and/or family members of any person who suffered an injury and/or fatality in those situations.

    219. (1) Every one is criminally negligent who

    (a) in doing anything, or

    (b) in omitting to do anything that it is his duty to do,

    shows wanton or reckless disregard for the lives or safety of other persons.

    Definition of “duty”

    (2) For the purposes of this section, “duty” means a duty imposed by law.

    R.S., c. C-34, s. 202.

    This post should and will be the end of any equipment related questions as that is not the intended purpose of the seminar and those types of questions will not be answered before, during, or after the seminar. This includes an individual speaking directly to the officer before, during, or after the seminar in an individual to officer scenario and/or a group to officer scenario.

    All preceding and any further equipment related questions will be deleted from this thread for the reasons stated above.
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  5. #45
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    I think of JK101 as being offered by experienced off road wheels to help educate new imexpeienced ones, ( that's me ) so as such I am lacking the knowledge to contribute questions related to " off-road wheeling legalities ", but would certainly like to learn about them, so if any of you "experienced" wheels have questions, even if 'you' know the answer already, but think that in asking...the OPP officer's response would be helpful to a newbie, please contribute the question. We are at the mercy of those that have been there already to help us learn the right way to do WHEELING, and in the end that benefits us all.
    special screw things up at the push of a button.

  6. #46
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    Here is a handful (or more), not necessarily for the wheelers, but for the ATVers...and potentially snowmobilers...which could help those of us who also own ATVs/UTVs/Sleds/etc.

    What are the rules on riding 2-up? Add-on "rear seats"? Factory 2-up ATVs?

    What about 3-up in terms of sleds? or 2-up on a single seater?

    Also, what is the deal on dirtbikes/enduros, ATVs, UTVs, sleds on the access roads? Like the fire roads through the 5 points and or roads like Black River Road north of 118?

    What about UTVs on the trails?

    ATVs/UTVs (with or without track systems installed) on the sled trails in winter?

    When is the official cut-off (keeping in mind OF4WD may have different preferred dates) for the wheeling season? When does the OFSC take over the trails?

    What is the potential fallout of wheeling OFSC trails during the period they have a Land Use Agreement in place?

  7. #47
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    i think this is a great idea having a o.p.p's insight especially for us newbies that arent 100% about all the different laws concerning trails. im hoping to find out alot of useful info and maybe once we get the feel for the type of questions answers and info maybe have a few related questions. thanks for this opertunity im excited

  8. #48
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    As has already been said, if items have been removed and/or modified and/or damaged and are no longer functioning as intended by factory and/or as tested to federal standards then you COULD get a ticket but it doesn't mean you will.

    If you are concerned of this because your vehicle is modified. Might I suggest obtaining a publicly licensed technician write report as to the safety of your vehicle and obtain a declatory judgement so you are free of liability and you ll have a judicial order to show the police officer to avoid a ticket.

    A question for the officer would be appropriation of crown claimed land for private use. What is the procedures for this?

    Maybe he could have all the relevant acts and regulations that govern anything that happens offloading?

  9. #49
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    I will not be attending, but i have a question. I ride a dual purpose bike, an old DR 600, it is licensed and insured for the road (blue plate). My figuring is that I am allowed on trails with it, I had a group of "atv'ers" tell me that I am not allowed on trails due to my blue plate and only green plates are allowed on trails. I meet others on the trail with the bike and they are more than friendly, it is just this one group of "city folk". I figure these guys don't know to much. I am just looking to find out for sure as I have never met any sort of enforcement on the trail with it and don't want to get in trouble.
    My only problem is i have forgotten more things than I have learned
    OF4WD # 6762

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by v1nc3 View Post
    Questions for seminar.
    Do they see any directive coming down the pipe that would have a significant impact to full size vehicles operating on the trails of ontario?
    What types of activities would they like to see from the off-road group? (not just Jeepers, we're only a part of the 4x4 users group)
    Will or can they put official reports into the govt system to support continued access of public land for 4x4 recreational use?
    What criteria must be met before a sign goes up indicating "no motorized vehicles"? (the continued "someone put a chain and some signs across greens entrance again" comes to mind)

    I all, some of you have asked me for the OF4WD opinion or veiw point on some issues. Please see this thread here,

    ---------- Post added at 06:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by BullwinkleTJ View Post
    -Is it possible for 4x4 Clubs or organizations to affiliate and assist in Search & Rescue with the OPP, and or how to set up such relationships
    -Liability, risk, and expense of backwoods rescues
    This is me talking here and nothing from the OF4WD.

    As a past qualified OSARVA SAR tech of 6 years where I volunteered with the OPP, TPS, Durham Region, Halton, Peterborough and some smaller police services this is a very difficult area to get involved with. The police have to be careful with missing persons as often in southern Ontario there is a criminal intent behind the situation. The Police take a large risk in having volunteers assist with SAR activities as they are un-trained in crime scene preservation and operations. That being said it has been seen before where volunteers assist with searching in certain scenarios.

    From the OF4WD side of things, I have been approached by my old buddies about getting the organization involved in disaster relief. Please see their website, maybe one day with the right people in place we can set up a team for flood relief and other situations. However, this doesn’t really fall into our objective of keeping public lands public so it is on the back burner at the moment.

    Hope this helps
    Brian Sibbles
    Executive Director

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