Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: Passing and intersections...?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Palmerston, On.
    Posts
    258
    Time Online: 6 Days 14 Hrs 36 Mins 10 Secs
    Avg. Time Online: 32 Secs
    Rep Power
    14

    Passing and intersections...?

    Hello again.

    This question is a result of a close call and the discussion that followed at my workplace.

    One of our tractor-trailers is approaching a typical 2 lane highway/ sideroad intersection, signal light on, to make a right hand turn on to the sideroad. Note, approaching, not "at" the intersection. A vehicle behind him pulls out to pass. At the same time, a vehicle waiting to turn left towards our truck, probably seeing the upcoming truck, proceeds with the left turn. Those two vehicles met beside the truck. Not good.

    Of those two vehicles, who is in the wrong? And of course, why?

    Is it illegal to pass when "approaching" an intersection? How about "at" the intersection?

    Does it make a difference if the passing manoeuvre takes place while passing through an intersection?


    I have tried to make the situation and questions clear; if I have failed please feel free to ask for clarification.

    Thank-you so much for your time, we appreciate you efforts.

    Tim
    '98 XJ 2dr. 3" and 33" ATs --His--
    '99 XJ 4dr. 3" and 31 AT's --Hers--
    '72 J4000 --Ours?--

    It's all good.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    391
    Time Online: 1 Mth 6 Days 7 Hrs 49 Mins 11 Secs
    Avg. Time Online: 2 Mins 59 Secs
    Rep Power
    8
    I understand the question and the sequence of events as you described. Believe it or not, this is a relatively common cause for collisions at intersections.

    To answer your basic question, in fact both drivers could be considered at fault.

    Quoted from the Highway Traffic Act:

    142. (1) The driver or operator of a vehicle upon a highway before turning to the left or right at any intersection or into a private road or driveway or from one lane for traffic to another lane for traffic or to leave the roadway shall first see that the movement can be made in safety, and if the operation of any other vehicle may be affected by the movement shall give a signal plainly visible to the driver or operator of the other vehicle of the intention to make the movement. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 142 (1).

    As you can see, both drivers have committed an offence in this situation.....There is no specific offence for changing lanes within an intersection, but by the sheer amount of things that can happen (such as your example), this section could apply.

    I hope this answers your question....
    Last edited by ON OFFroad; 07-28-2012 at 03:01 PM.
    Opinions expressed are those of the author, accuracy of information posted cannot be guaranteed. These opinions in no way represent the OPP, any other Police Department or Police Officer.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Palmerston, On.
    Posts
    258
    Time Online: 6 Days 14 Hrs 36 Mins 10 Secs
    Avg. Time Online: 32 Secs
    Rep Power
    14
    It is a thorough answer indeed.

    Thank-you.

    Tim

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    391
    Time Online: 1 Mth 6 Days 7 Hrs 49 Mins 11 Secs
    Avg. Time Online: 2 Mins 59 Secs
    Rep Power
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by TNC View Post
    It is a thorough answer indeed.

    Thank-you.

    Tim
    Its a pleasure, anytime!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Palmerston, On.
    Posts
    258
    Time Online: 6 Days 14 Hrs 36 Mins 10 Secs
    Avg. Time Online: 32 Secs
    Rep Power
    14
    I am thinking I should make sure the events in my example were described well and accurate....

    Our tractor trailer was rolling south bound with the right signal on approaching a sideroad on which to make his turn.
    The first car was at the stop sign of that intersection, coming from the west, waiting to turn north. Seeing the the tractor trailer would not be able to make his right hand turn with the car waiting to turn, that car proceeded with his left turn.
    At the same time, the following car went out to pass our truck. The two cars were then facing each other in the northbound lane.
    None of the vehicles were actually in the intersection at the point of convergence. (ah, there's my word of the day!)

    Does this clarify things and possibly change perspective?

    Tim

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    391
    Time Online: 1 Mth 6 Days 7 Hrs 49 Mins 11 Secs
    Avg. Time Online: 2 Mins 59 Secs
    Rep Power
    8
    Hmmmm, I think I am understanding a little better. The north/south is a through road, and the east/west is stop sign controlled at this intersection?

    Another section comes to mind that may apply, considering the type of intersection it is...

    136(1)(b)

    Fail to yield to traffic on through highway

    Every driver or street car operator approaching a stop sign at an intersection,

    (b) shall yield the right of way to traffic in the intersection or approaching the intersection on another highway so closely that to proceed would constitute an immediate hazard and, having so yielded the right of way, may proceed.



    Sounds like the guy that pulled out from the sideroad would be at fault, if indeed the scenario is as I described.....

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    St. Thomas
    Posts
    456
    My Mood
    Yeehaw
    Time Online: 2 Mths 14 Hrs 54 Mins 1 Sec
    Avg. Time Online: 4 Mins 59 Secs
    Rep Power
    10
    Really ? Wouldn't the yellow line be solid( because of approaching an intersection), making it illegal for the vehicle behind the truck to pass? In this situation I strattle the centre line, which usually causes the car from right to have to back up. But by taking total control of the intersection you take out the ability for impatient drivers to make bad decisions, causing accidents. See this stuff wwaayy to often. I get told I am #1 sometimes, but I hate seeing accidents.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    391
    Time Online: 1 Mth 6 Days 7 Hrs 49 Mins 11 Secs
    Avg. Time Online: 2 Mins 59 Secs
    Rep Power
    8
    No mention of solid lines or not, it is not an offence specifically to drive left of centre approaching an intersection. The lines are used as a guideline (usually indicating one of the offences listed below).

    There is an offence for driving left of centre on/near a curve/crest of grade/bridge/viaduct/level railway crossing.



    Taken from Section 149(1)(a) of the Highway Traffic Act:

    No vehicle shall be driven or operated to the left of the centre of a roadway designed for one or more lines of traffic in each direction,

    (a) when approaching the crest of a grade or upon a curve in the roadway or within 30 metres of a bridge, viaduct or tunnel where the driverís view is obstructed within that distance so as to create a potential hazard in the event another vehicle might approach from the opposite direction;



    Without knowing the specifics of this intersection in particular (ie: turning lanes, lines etc) I can only go by what the legislation says.

    You see solid lines approaching many intersections, for sure. Usually if they are busy, have tendencies to have obstructed views, incorporate turning lanes, they will have solid lines approaching them. This is SUPPOSED to ward people off from making those bad decisions you speak of!

    Hopefully this clears it up!
    Last edited by ON OFFroad; 07-30-2012 at 12:48 AM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Palmerston, On.
    Posts
    258
    Time Online: 6 Days 14 Hrs 36 Mins 10 Secs
    Avg. Time Online: 32 Secs
    Rep Power
    14
    Well, this sure has been interesting!

    As a further clarification re ON OFFroad's statement, this particular intersection is as flat, simple and unobstructed as it gets. As best of my recollection, the north/south highway has no solid line either direction.

    As such then, the following statements should be accurate.....?

    -it would certainly seem the vehicle making the turn is in the wrong.
    -the vehicle initiating the passing manoeuvre is not particularly breaking a law.
    -and, as a general statement/question, the distance from a view obstruction (hill, curve) determines the legality of crossing the center line while the road markings are meant as guidelines?

    ShaneZ: Hear hear!

    How about one last question as a variation of original question:

    Is it legal for one vehicle to pass another where the overtaken vehicle is slowing to make a left turn with their signal light on? i.e. A tractor trailer may start slowing easily a kilometre back from an intersection. May a car legally pass if it can be done safely?



    Wow, have I mentioned this is awesome?

    Thanks!

    Tim
    Last edited by TNC; 07-30-2012 at 10:47 AM.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    391
    Time Online: 1 Mth 6 Days 7 Hrs 49 Mins 11 Secs
    Avg. Time Online: 2 Mins 59 Secs
    Rep Power
    8
    Correct, the distance from the crest of a grade/curve is generally the determining factor, both for you as a driver, and for where they put the double solid lines.

    There is no offence specifically for passing on the left, I just re-read your question... I would say passing a vehicle on the left who has indicated their intent to turn LEFT, should really be well thought out before doing. For example, people on my road will actually pull into the oncoming lane (where there's good visibility) well ahead of their turn (usually a driveway) in order not to slow down traffic behind them.

    I just use that as an example, to illustrate that with a lot of drivers, there's no way to guess their intentions.

    Having said that, it is the responsibility of the person making the left turn, as well as the person passing, to make sure it is clear.... As far as I understand it.

    Happy to help
    Last edited by ON OFFroad; 08-04-2012 at 10:24 AM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Kingston, ON
    Posts
    848
    Time Online: 1 Wk 5 Days 22 Hrs 47 Mins 53 Secs
    Avg. Time Online: 1 Min 3 Secs
    Rep Power
    6
    Thank you for this thread - this is very fascinating! I recently helped my girlfriend prepare for her G1 test so the contents of the official driver's handbook are very fresh in my memory. Before reading your responses, I had guessed that the passing driver on the through road would have been charged and found in the wrong for performing an lane change through an intersection and passing over a solid line (I had no idea these weren't actually laws). The first time I read "when approaching the crest of a grade or upon a curve in the roadway or within 30 metres of a bridge, viaduct or tunnel where the driver’s view is obstructed within that distance so as to create a potential hazard in the event another vehicle might approach from the opposite direction" I figured that a tractor trailer would count as a visual obstruction. I have a bus route on my street, I actually live at the corner, so a vehicle waiting to turn right onto the through road doing so when they see a bus approaching from their left with the signal on is actually quite normal to me. (Bus takes up most of the opposite lane when turning that corner). From what I've been taught (and see on at least a semi-weekly basis) it feels like the passing driver was being an idiot and should have just slowed down.

    In my view the guy trying to be nice to the truck/bus is at fault and the impatient jackass gets a pass lol Funny how the actual law is actually the complete reverse of what I was taught! I take it that the correct logic in this situation is that the driver on the side road should have reversed (if there was room behind him to do so) and the throughroad has right of way, so he should have waited to turn until he could see without obstruction that there was no oncoming traffic, instead of assuming that nobody would pass a solid line through an intersection.

    I hope you guys don't think I'm nitpicking or arguing at all, just thought I'd throw that comment in here. Funny how things work
    But our trip was different. It was to be a classic affirmation of everything right and true in the national character. A gross physical salute to the fantastic possibilities of life in this country. But only for those with true grit.

    And we are chock full of that, man!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    391
    Time Online: 1 Mth 6 Days 7 Hrs 49 Mins 11 Secs
    Avg. Time Online: 2 Mins 59 Secs
    Rep Power
    8
    LOL no worries....

    A tractor trailer however, isn't a bridge, viaduct or a tunnel so as you eluded to, it doesn't really fit anywhere in that section of the act.

    I think I had mentioned it in my reply, but to be clear, there are MANY other factors that can come into play, which make it unlawful to pass in these situations. Things like turning lanes, pedestrian crossings etc.

    There is so much to consider when passing, not the least of which (as has been illustrated here) are people pulling out from sideroads. In the right or not, I don't think anyone wants to end up in a collision.

    In GENERAL this is the rule, but it is a lot clearer when thinking of more rural roads than city streets....

    Hopefully this clears it up...
    Last edited by ON OFFroad; 08-02-2012 at 01:28 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •