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Thread: Friend in accident, need advice

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    Friend in accident, need advice

    The quick story; Friend (Driver #1) is Eastbound in left lane on 4 lane road. Driver #2 is Westbound also in their left lane. Speed limit 60kph. Driver 2 is stopped waiting to turn left. He turns left in front of Driver 1 at an intersection that's controlled with traffic lights. Collision occurs, writing off both compact cars. Driver 1 insists light was yellow but he 'clearly still had right of way'. Driver 1 was going straight through. Driver 2 claims light had changed to red and that Driver 1 should have stopped to let him exit the intersection. A second westbound vehicle also involved, colliding with Driver 1 after Driver 1's car bounced into comming lanes. Second collision was minor.

    It's my understanding that in virtually all situations the car turning left is required to yield right-of-way to oncomming traffic. It this true? Also does the fact that a second vehicle was also was traveling straight through lend any weight to Driver #1's story that the light was not red?

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    Re: Friend in accident, need advice

    Driver 1 at fault. If he's admitting the light was yellow he should have stopped. Driver 2 has to turn if in intersection. If the light wasn't green there isn't a "right of way"

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    Friend in accident, need advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Clipper View Post
    Driver 1 at fault. If he's admitting the light was yellow he should have stopped. Driver 2 has to turn if in intersection. If the light wasn't green there isn't a "right of way"
    Very incorrect.

    You're not allowed to enter an intersection if the light is yellow, you can however continue through if lights turn. The only way driver 2 isn't at fault is if driver one ran a red light.

    Edit: And yes a third party going through the yellow and not red means two drivers words against one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clipper View Post
    Driver 1 at fault. If he's admitting the light was yellow he should have stopped. Driver 2 has to turn if in intersection. If the light wasn't green there isn't a "right of way"
    A lot of circumstantial BS to sift through. We don't know WHEN the light turned yellow in this scenario. But I have never heard of whether the light was green or yellow magically changing who has the right-of-way.

    While I'm far from an expert, I have NEVER heard of a scenario where through traffic must yield their right-of-way to a vehicle making a left turn into on coming traffic. NEVER. My understanding is that a vehicle is not allowed to make a left turn into the flow of oncoming traffic unless it is safe to do so. The colour of light should secondary as to whether the coast is clear.

    Eye witness testimony would probably play a big role in establishing whether the through traffic had enough time to safely stop and yield to the yellow light or if the through traffic was past the point of no return while proceeding through the intersection when the light switched from green to yellow.

    I'd contend that driver #2 will get charged with some form of an improper or unsafe left turn REGARDLESS of what or if driver #1 gets charged with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MUD DAWG View Post
    Very incorrect.

    You're not allowed to enter an intersection if the light is yellow, you can however continue through if lights turn. The only way driver 2 isn't at fault is if driver one ran a red light.

    Edit: And yes a third party going through the yellow and not red means two drivers words against one.
    Went through this exact situation.

    NO MATTER what colour the light is, the person turning and crossing the flow of traffic is at fault according to the insurance company.

    But are we allowed to post up here.

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    Friend in accident, need advice

    Quote Originally Posted by pav1 View Post
    Went through this exact situation.

    NO MATTER what colour the light is, the person turning and crossing the flow of traffic is at fault according to the insurance company.

    But are we allowed to post up here.
    I don't think our in-house broker posts much for now while he gets better. And I don't blame him.

    And yes like you and CTD said, driver 2 is gonna get it. Even if the cops don't lay charges, the insurance companies will put him at fault.

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    Re: Friend in accident, need advice

    What I was told by the cops when my grandfather was involved in a similar accident (although he was the one turning left and the driver going straight changed lanes at the last second to go around the guy who stopped to let them go left) a left turn automatically becomes and illegal left turn the second there is an accident. Unless the other driver can be proved to have done something blatantly illegal.

    In a he said/she said about the colour of the lights I suspect the charges will fall on the guy making the left. The insurance companies will probably try and say the blame is 50-50 so they can raise everybody's rates.
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    I had the same accident a couple years ago but the light was red and I was in the intersection waiting to turn and when I finally went a girl ran the red and wrote off my jeep the cop said it was my fault for turning in front of her he said i should be able to predict people running lights so I took a loss for my vehicle (95 zj orvis 5.2 only had it for 3 months) there was also no witness to the red light she said it was yellow but still my fault for turning in front of her

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    Regardless of whether or not the light was yellow or red the driver making the left turn has to wait until the way is safe and clear to do so. Driver #2 is at fault.

    Driver #2 actually isn't even supposed to ENTER the intersection until the way is clear, the old "3/4's deep" rule doesn't exist anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NINE-T-1-RENEGADE View Post
    Regardless of whether or not the light was yellow or red the driver making the left turn has to wait until the way is safe and clear to do so. Driver #2 is at fault.

    Driver #2 actually isn't even supposed to ENTER the intersection until the way is clear, the old "3/4's deep" rule doesn't exist anymore.
    This ...

    We all "enter" the intersection when making a left turn and wait for opposing traffic to clear. However, by the letter of the law. It is illegal to do so. You are to remain behind the while line so as not to enter the intersection, until the way is clear.

    But in real life (not legal life), could you imagine how long it would take to make a left turn in traffic if you were the third fourth or fifth car back and following the rules of the road.

    Grimm

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    Friend in accident, need advice

    The only way driver #2 would be innocent in that scenario would be if he had an advanced green or green arrow an driver #1 ran the red light.

    In every other situation for that left turn he would be at fault.

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    I have always been of the belief that the law was yellow - stop if safe to do so otherwise continue on with CAUTION.

    Not sure about entering, if it turned while you were in the intersection or anything else.

    Left driver can only turn when it is safe to do so. End of. But two wrongs don't make a right and another's guilt doesn't make you not at fault.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    This ...

    We all "enter" the intersection when making a left turn and wait for opposing traffic to clear. However, by the letter of the law. It is illegal to do so. You are to remain behind the while line so as not to enter the intersection, until the way is clear.

    But in real life (not legal life), could you imagine how long it would take to make a left turn in traffic if you were the third fourth or fifth car back and following the rules of the road.

    Grimm
    I was taught @ young Drivers of Canada, that you are allowed to be in the intersection while turning left, and you must wait until it is safe to continue the turn. The Yellow light is to give every one a chance to clear the inter section safely.

    If you are passed the white line, you must clear the intersection when it is safe to do so.

    If coming to a stop, you must stop before the white line, not passing it.

    But as far as crossing the white line, I was taught that his acceptable, and the way you should be handling your turn...

    Have the laws changed ?

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    Left turn driver is at fault if the insurance company says anything less than 100% fault on the left turn driver pm me and i will send you the Ontario fault determination rules for Ontario. THE ONLY WAY THAT THE DRIVER GOING STRAIGHT WILL BE AT FAULT IS IF HE WAS IMPAIRED!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimm View Post
    This ...

    We all "enter" the intersection when making a left turn and wait for opposing traffic to clear. However, by the letter of the law. It is illegal to do so. You are to remain behind the while line so as not to enter the intersection, until the way is clear.

    But in real life (not legal life), could you imagine how long it would take to make a left turn in traffic if you were the third fourth or fifth car back and following the rules of the road.

    Grimm
    Where does it say that in the HTA?

    Left turn, at intersection
    (6) Where a driver or operator of a vehicle intends to turn to the left into an intersecting highway, he or she shall, where the highway on which he or she is driving has marked lanes for traffic, approach the intersection within the left-hand lane provided for the use of traffic moving in the direction in which his or her vehicle is proceeding or, where it has no such marked lanes, by keeping immediately to the right of the centre line of the highway and he or she shall make the left turn by entering the intersection to the right of the centre line or its extension and by leaving the intersection in the left-hand lane provided for the use of traffic moving in the direction in which his or her vehicle is proceeding where the lane is marked or, where no such lane is marked, by passing immediately to the right of the centre line of the intersecting highway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (6).

    http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/sta...08_e.htm#BK215

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    i also was in young drivers, took the advanced driver class.

    as i recall, and have been doing my whole driving life, is if you are in the intersection waiting to turn left, and the light turns yellow, you must wait for the light to turn red and the way is clear to proceed. this way if you get t-boned, it's the other drivers fault for running straight through a red light.
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    As has been stated, driver one is not at fault. I also went through the same thing as your friend and that's how it played out. That being said, be prepared for a potential lawsuit when the other drivers ins won't cover them and they come after the other party. Ask me how I know

    And Rholden1, I'm not gonna look up the specific section, but in a different section or subsection regarding intersections in general, it states something along the lines of no car shall enter an intersection that can not be exited immediately (not a direct quote), this would be the same thing that covers you not proceeding straight through an intersection in heavy traffic until you can drive all the way through it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by caged View Post
    i also was in young drivers, took the advanced driver class.

    as i recall, and have been doing my whole driving life, is if you are in the intersection waiting to turn left, and the light turns yellow, you must wait for the light to turn red and the way is clear to proceed. this way if you get t-boned, it's the other drivers fault for running straight through a red light.
    driver #2 can sit there till the light turn purple if he feels a person is trying to run the light "proper intersection scanning " all other drivers have to remain stopped till that person has cleared the intersection . it never works that way people take a run at the guy clearing the intersection ..when going through a yellow caution should be taken by driver #1 if running the light late he should be coasting with the foot over the brake "evasive driving technique" if this person was found to be accelerating on the yellow they can be charged for careless driving ..also was the left lane the path of least Resistance of was the right lane ? the left lane is not for driving it is for passing and emergency vehicles. did he have a valid reason for being in the left lane ...and as for driver #2 that person needs to look around a bit more not hard to see that a car isn't stopping and should be hit with a "stupid ticket" because pulling out in front of a high speed car is stupid 60kmph is 55feet per second
    Last edited by lemon; 02-28-2013 at 10:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by caged View Post
    i also was in young drivers, took the advanced driver class.

    as i recall, and have been doing my whole driving life, is if you are in the intersection waiting to turn left, and the light turns yellow, you must wait for the light to turn red and the way is clear to proceed. this way if you get t-boned, it's the other drivers fault for running straight through a red light.
    If you look at it from an iinsurance standpoint regardless of the color of the lights if you are turning left and get hit you are at fault. The only way this changes is if the driver of the other car is impaired or charged criminally as a result of the accident

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    And Rholden1, I'm not gonna look up the specific section, but in a different section or subsection regarding intersections in general, it states something along the lines of no car shall enter an intersection that can not be exited immediately (not a direct quote), this would be the same thing that covers you not proceeding straight through an intersection in heavy traffic until you can drive all the way through it.
    I have read the HTA before, I have never seen this statement. The closest thing you could be describing would be covering impeding the flow of traffic. Blocking an intersection is its own section of the HTA termed "blocking an intersection"

    The HTA states:

    Stay to the right hand side of the lane
    Enter the intersection
    Exit the intersection into the proper designated lane.


    The main issue that the OP has is that the law states this:

    Left turn, across path of approaching vehicle
    (5) No driver or operator of a vehicle in an intersection shall turn left across the path of a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction unless he or she has afforded a reasonable opportunity to the driver or operator of the approaching vehicle to avoid a collision. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (5).

    I would have to say that the driver proceeding through the intersection could not avoid the collision.

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