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    Insurance fraud

    I came across this artical today while doing my normal reading, and thought id share it here on jeepkings.


    http://www.citopbroker.com/news/top-...nce-fraud-4803


    I know we all hear it, but insurance fraud hurts everyone. So next time you have a claim and you think you should "sneak" a little extra because the big insurance companies make millions it really does effect the innocent policyholders.


    Enjoy! Keep discussion focused. And mods, if this isnt an appropriate post in this sections, feel free to delete it.
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    And yet the auto insurance industry in Ontario as a whole continuously posts record profits year after year....all the while jacking rates up year after year.

    Coincedence? I think not.

    And after all that, we are paying some of the most expensive auto insurance premiums in North America...does anyone wonder why there is fraud?

    The real fraud is our rates. That is what fukcing hurts policy holders.

    Does anyone believe if insurance fraud was reduced that savings would get passed on to the customer?

    Getting ass raped year after year only serves to breed a disdain for this industry. The industry bends every customer over every year. Some customers take opportunities to bend the industry over every now and then.

    I don't condone fraud but I understand why some of it exists. The difference between right and wrong depends on what side of the fence you are on.

    There is no black and white no matter what the insurance company would have you believe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTD NUT View Post
    And yet the auto insurance industry in Ontario as a whole continuously posts record profits year after year....all the while jacking rates up year after year.

    Coincedence? I think not.

    And after all that, we are paying some of the most expensive auto insurance premiums in North America...does anyone wonder why there is fraud?

    The real fraud is our rates. That is what fukcing hurts policy holders.

    Does anyone believe if insurance fraud was reduced that savings would get passed on to the customer?

    Getting ass raped year after year only serves to breed a disdain for this industry. The industry bends every customer over every year. Some customers take opportunities to bend the industry over every now and then.

    I don't condone fraud but I understand why some of it exists. The difference between right and wrong depends on what side of the fence you are on.

    There is no black and white no matter what the insurance company would have you believe.
    Well said CTD Nuts
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTD NUT View Post
    And yet the auto insurance industry in Ontario as a whole continuously posts record profits year after year....all the while jacking rates up year after year.

    Coincedence? I think not.

    And after all that, we are paying some of the most expensive auto insurance premiums in North America...does anyone wonder why there is fraud?

    The real fraud is our rates. That is what fukcing hurts policy holders.

    Does anyone believe if insurance fraud was reduced that savings would get passed on to the customer?

    Getting ass raped year after year only serves to breed a disdain for this industry. The industry bends every customer over every year. Some customers take opportunities to bend the industry over every now and then.

    I don't condone fraud but I understand why some of it exists. The difference between right and wrong depends on what side of the fence you are on.

    There is no black and white no matter what the insurance company would have you believe.
    the way I understand the information that is relayed about insurance rates is that the insurance companys are losing money etc. BUT I do have to ask, if the insurance business loses money why have the banks gotten into the insurance business?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeannie View Post
    the way I understand the information that is relayed about insurance rates is that the insurance companys are losing money etc. BUT I do have to ask, if the insurance business loses money why have the banks gotten into the insurance business?
    Insurance financials are a sketchy for sure.

    I have heard them claim that their profits are from investments and not premiums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CTD NUT View Post
    Insurance financials are a sketchy for sure.

    I have heard them claim that their profits are from investments and not premiums.
    So, insurance companies invest your premiums, you knew that right?? Thier a business just like your employer and need to pay staff and other cost. So when the market tank, they loose money on thier investments. Does that mean they loose money over all?

    If you want to see a insurance companies financial statements, Ill post a link... thier out there in the wide open. If you can make sense of it... I can somewhat, but in no means am i an account, actuarie or a investment/business analyst.

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    After paying around $1200-$2400 fot the last 27 years with one claim my insurance Company called 6 years ago and said Im a high risk driver, Because I own 2 jeeps. wanted to bump me up from $1100 to $3200 fo PL/PD. Guess what? I found a new Company, and with the money I saved I bought a new Truck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazykid View Post
    So, insurance companies invest your premiums, you knew that right??
    Well, yes....you even quoted where I stated that??


    Quote Originally Posted by Crazykid View Post
    If you want to see a insurance companies financial statements, Ill post a link... thier out there in the wide open. If you can make sense of it... I can somewhat, but in no means am i an account, actuarie or a investment/business analyst.
    I appreciate the sentiment but no thanks. I won't be able to make anymore sense of those statements than you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CTD NUT View Post
    Insurance financials are a sketchy for sure.

    I have heard them claim that their profits are from investments and not premiums.
    They take our policys which contain ( a promise to pay) and invest that into the secondary derivatives market. That`s where all of the policy holders equity gets diluted (ass raped).
    That`s also where all the record profits come from as well.
    It s called fractional reserve banking , it will stop sooner then later. http://mises.org/daily/6394/
    Read modern money mechanics if you re interested in how the ass raping happens. http://archive.org/details/ModernMoneyMechanics
    If you don`t like reading, here is a movie for you that explains it simply. http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ adendum 2008
    Last edited by 4wheeler; 05-03-2013 at 04:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeannie View Post
    the way I understand the information that is relayed about insurance rates is that the insurance companys are losing money etc. BUT I do have to ask, if the insurance business loses money why have the banks gotten into the insurance business?
    I don't believe there losing money. this is the way I was told they report loss or gains.
    They predict how much there going to make. Lets say 5 billon in 2012.
    after 2012 is done they report and if they only make 4 billon in 2012 That means They have “lost” 1 Billon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTD NUT View Post
    And yet the auto insurance industry in Ontario as a whole continuously posts record profits year after year....all the while jacking rates up year after year.

    Coincedence? I think not.

    And after all that, we are paying some of the most expensive auto insurance premiums in North America...does anyone wonder why there is fraud?

    The real fraud is our rates. That is what fukcing hurts policy holders.

    Does anyone believe if insurance fraud was reduced that savings would get passed on to the customer?

    Getting ass raped year after year only serves to breed a disdain for this industry. The industry bends every customer over every year. Some customers take opportunities to bend the industry over every now and then.

    I don't condone fraud but I understand why some of it exists. The difference between right and wrong depends on what side of the fence you are on.

    There is no black and white no matter what the insurance company would have you believe.
    I knew there would be a reply similar to this. And your not any different then most consumers.
    However you have to think of auto insurance like this - and trust me, I dont like paying premium as much as the next guy.

    The biggest cost of the auto insurance is accident benifits. If you look at your renewal youll see each item broken down with premium, likely the accident benifits, liability and bodily injury numbers will be the highest. Collision and Comprehenisve coverages are relativly cheap in comparison.

    So lets use $500 in AB premium as a easy number. And you were injured in a car crash - your AB coverage is going to respond to help pay for recovery. Dont say you dont plan on getting hurt, non of us do. So in 10 years youve paid $500/yr - would you be ok if insurance only paid for $5000 worht of rehab? A chiropractor or physio therapist can tell ya, $5000 isnt going to go far.

    Now to where iam going... most of the fraud thats costing large amounts of money to the insurance companies is coming from AB fraud, clinics double billing, billing for services not done etc etc. Repair shops inflating the price of repairs. Its not always the policyholder committing the fraud, but they can spot it with the right education.

    So... my question to you, do you feel like your being over charged on your home insurance? Or your life insurance? The risk is higher you will have a claim in your auto?

    Ill be honest, nobody is ever happy with paying insurance, as you dont feel you get anything in return, until you have a claim. Its a double edge sword.

    Good discussion, Id just like to point out, not every company is raising rates... i know a company that had a few rate decreases last year.

    Cheers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazykid View Post
    I knew there would be a reply similar to this. And your not any different then most consumers.
    However you have to think of auto insurance like this - and trust me, I dont like paying premium as much as the next guy.

    The biggest cost of the auto insurance is accident benifits. If you look at your renewal youll see each item broken down with premium, likely the accident benifits, liability and bodily injury numbers will be the highest. Collision and Comprehenisve coverages are relativly cheap in comparison.

    So lets use $500 in AB premium as a easy number. And you were injured in a car crash - your AB coverage is going to respond to help pay for recovery. Dont say you dont plan on getting hurt, non of us do. So in 10 years youve paid $500/yr - would you be ok if insurance only paid for $5000 worht of rehab? A chiropractor or physio therapist can tell ya, $5000 isnt going to go far.

    Now to where iam going... most of the fraud thats costing large amounts of money to the insurance companies is coming from AB fraud, clinics double billing, billing for services not done etc etc. Repair shops inflating the price of repairs. Its not always the policyholder committing the fraud, but they can spot it with the right education.

    So... my question to you, do you feel like your being over charged on your home insurance? Or your life insurance? The risk is higher you will have a claim in your auto?

    Ill be honest, nobody is ever happy with paying insurance, as you dont feel you get anything in return, until you have a claim. Its a double edge sword.

    Good discussion, Id just like to point out, not every company is raising rates... i know a company that had a few rate decreases last year.

    Cheers!

    I get your point. Really, I do.

    But when the industry posts record profits on top of record premiums, how the industry got to that point matters little to me when we are paying some of the most expensive auto insurance in North America.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CTD NUT View Post
    And yet the auto insurance industry in Ontario as a whole continuously posts record profits year after year....all the while jacking rates up year after year.

    Coincedence? I think not.

    And after all that, we are paying some of the most expensive auto insurance premiums in North America...does anyone wonder why there is fraud?

    The real fraud is our rates. That is what fukcing hurts policy holders.

    Does anyone believe if insurance fraud was reduced that savings would get passed on to the customer?

    Getting ass raped year after year only serves to breed a disdain for this industry. The industry bends every customer over every year. Some customers take opportunities to bend the industry over every now and then.

    I don't condone fraud but I understand why some of it exists. The difference between right and wrong depends on what side of the fence you are on.

    There is no black and white no matter what the insurance company would have you believe.
    insurance companies suck well said for sure
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    Im not sure how much fraud can be happening, when someone hit my truck I took it to the shop of my choice, and the body guy showed me the esimate that the insurance rep allowed. Not a penny more. and he estimated high and 2007 ford body parts are cheap tailgate and headlights. I couldn't add anything! The insurance industry knows what things cost and keep good stats. they know the average what dr's charge for certain ailments. AS a dealer of service to insurance companies I do know why we charge them top rate, because they pay so slow and then try to nickel and dime us to lower prices.
    Last edited by jeeper52; 04-27-2013 at 10:46 AM.
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    So all this insurance shit reminds me when I moved to Winnipeg from Ontario. I was in the forces (only reason to live in Winnipeg)LOL. I was 24 and being screwed by Ont insurance. I was paying $5500 a year to insure a 1980 Pontiac Grand Prix. When I went to get insurance in Manitoba I walked in to the office (autopac) it was called, Government run. The woman behind the counter told me what I was going to have to pay and I ****in near shit myself!!!!!!!! $1200 a year FULL COVERAGE!!!!!!!! WTF? just for moving out of ontario!!!!!!
    Lets just say when I moved back to Ontario, I still had a buddy in Manitoba, and it took me awhile to change my addy!!!!! And out there, you could take any POS and throw it on the road, no questions asked. Not that I believe that is smart, your vehicle should be safetied, but who ever thought no fault Gov insurance would work. I even had the GF get in an accident with it and they fixed it right!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by thing1 View Post
    So all this insurance shit reminds me when I moved to Winnipeg from Ontario. I was in the forces (only reason to live in Winnipeg)LOL. I was 24 and being screwed by Ont insurance. I was paying $5500 a year to insure a 1980 Pontiac Grand Prix. When I went to get insurance in Manitoba I walked in to the office (autopac) it was called, Government run. The woman behind the counter told me what I was going to have to pay and I ****in near shit myself!!!!!!!! $1200 a year FULL COVERAGE!!!!!!!! WTF? just for moving out of ontario!!!!!!
    Lets just say when I moved back to Ontario, I still had a buddy in Manitoba, and it took me awhile to change my addy!!!!! And out there, you could take any POS and throw it on the road, no questions asked. Not that I believe that is smart, your vehicle should be safetied, but who ever thought no fault Gov insurance would work. I even had the GF get in an accident with it and they fixed it right!!!!

    This is what Im saying, now have proof!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by thing1 View Post
    So all this insurance shit reminds me when I moved to Winnipeg from Ontario. I was in the forces (only reason to live in Winnipeg)LOL. I was 24 and being screwed by Ont insurance. I was paying $5500 a year to insure a 1980 Pontiac Grand Prix. When I went to get insurance in Manitoba I walked in to the office (autopac) it was called, Government run. The woman behind the counter told me what I was going to have to pay and I ****in near shit myself!!!!!!!! $1200 a year FULL COVERAGE!!!!!!!! WTF? just for moving out of ontario!!!!!!
    Lets just say when I moved back to Ontario, I still had a buddy in Manitoba, and it took me awhile to change my addy!!!!! And out there, you could take any POS and throw it on the road, no questions asked. Not that I believe that is smart, your vehicle should be safetied, but who ever thought no fault Gov insurance would work. I even had the GF get in an accident with it and they fixed it right!!!!
    Same deal... different type of system... it has its advantages and dis advantages.

    Ill dig up some information for you all to read, I think part of the problem in ON is that people arent educated enough and dont understand the simple - yet complicated system we have.

    As for the comment regarding there isnt much fraud going on in auto insurance - you my friend need to take a look at some of the information out there. Its costing HUGE amounts of money, in the GTA there is law suits against Drs who have committed the fraud, a quick google search will educate you a little more. If you want to provide opinions or comments, please make sure you back them up with some evidence, not a " when my truck was in a accident " You are only one of millions of insured people in ontario.

    Ill provide some google links for you shortly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazykid View Post
    Hit can happen to any of us, you may not even realize whats going on
    Quote Originally Posted by jeeper52 View Post
    Im not sure how much fraud can be happening, when someone hit my truck I took it to the shop of my choice, and the body guy showed me the esimate that the insurance rep allowed. Not a penny more. and he estimated high and 2007 ford body parts are cheap tailgate and headlights. I couldn't add anything! The insurance industry knows what things cost and keep good stats. they know the average what dr's charge for certain ailments. AS a dealer of service to insurance companies I do know why we charge them top rate, because they pay so slow and then try to nickel and dime us to lower prices.
    Here's something that boggled me. Come to think of it, it's probably completely intentional:

    Two years ago I was in pulling away from a fresh green, check the time, my mirrors, and apparently everyone in front of my had slammed to a stop. Suffice to say between reaction time and brakes, my little Tercel was toast. The Blazer's bumper was a bit scratched from shattered headlights, but otherwise fine. Could have used some Tremclad. The Tercel, however, had the radiator punched in by the hitch receiver. I called around a bit and got some quotes around $800 to fix up the Tercel, I guessed the Blazer would be about $50-100 to get professionally repainted (or a $10 can of paint at Crappy...) so it was a non-reportable accident. A couple days later the cops called and said I needed to drop by and fill out the report because the guy driving the Blazer panicked (more like his parents flipped) and reported his end.

    When I got there I explained why I had not appeared. The rep for the insurance-company owned reporting center said that the numbers they use as a threshold for reportable are NOT what a normal Joe would get quoted, but rather the "insurance company's cost to repair". The scratched paint on the Blazer's bumper was assessed as $800 in damage! Eight hundred ****ing dollars for a scratched steel bumper! So I say "bullshit" that costs are high due to policy holder fraud, "bullshit" that shops are nefarious. The shops are charging too much, the companies KNOW it, and they're fine with it! How else do you explain them expecting to pay $800 for a ****ing scratch?

    /rant
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    What about the complete fraud (ass rape) that the chain body shops do to the insurance companies? It's amazing at the deal you'll get when you ask for an insurance quote and then tell em you'll pay cash. Its 40-50% of the origonal bill. I know CarStar has to be one of the biggest insuance comapny rip-oof artists.

    Bill, can you guys do anything about being overcharges by the colision shops?


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    Re: Insurance fraud

    Here's another way to look at it. The insurance companies arn't going to take a hit on expected profits. So when they do have to pay out more they hike the rates. They will always just pass the costs on to the consumer. After 9/11 or katrina there was a rate spike in Canada for auto insurance. Why? Because the same American companies had to pay out in the states so they passed it on to us. As much as I feel like saying "stick it to the multinational faceless corporations" and i really do, they are just going to pass the added cost of fraud on to us. We HAVE to pay em what they ask so they can treat us basically how they wish. Now if all fraud were to stop tomorrow I'm no so nieve as to think my rates would go down, (they pass along costs not savings) but they may stop going up.
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