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Thread: Black pipe (poop pipe) VS DOM VS square

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    Question Black pipe (poop pipe) VS DOM VS square

    Besides the obviuos differences whts the big deal between using the three

    Ive read quite a bit about using DOM for suspension or a cage but isint steel steel

    Couldent a suspension link be made out of say 2inch square wouldent it be just as stron as 2 in round if the were both .250 wall

    and what about poop pipe every body says dont use it for your cage its not strong enough and yet Im willing to be lots of ppl use it

    WHY isint it strong enough its not like my Jeep is going to be going 200 KM an hour like a race car if it rolls Chances are that if it rolls Ill be going less than 30 KM an hour

    Im just wondering what everyones thoughts are on this before I decide to go aout and buy a buttload of poop pipe (pun intended) or DOM to fab a cage or suspension

    Im sure that a well built poop pipe cage is better than NO cage or a poorly built DOM cage thats not the point Im wondering what the acctual difference is in the steel

    lets assume 2 inch .250 wall in all three steels poop dom or square other than shape what are the strength differences

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    DOM= drawn over mandrel it has no seam therefor it is stronger, square tube or HSS can be had seamless as well, but mostly has a welded seam and it is usually considered the weak point. Black pipe, not sure of the structural properties, but it is used for pressure not weight/load bearing
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    heres the writeup i posted on zookpower years ago:



    The only reason i am posting this is it's the only thing ive seen thats totally comprehensive and yet so brief, big thanks to RockRat for allowing me to share it. I hope this puts an end to the info threads, preferences i think will always up to the builder but at least now it can be an informed descision.



    Some points to ponder:


    • Pipe is generally more rigid than tube, and is usually produced in heavier wall thicknesses.

    • Pipe is specified by a nominal dimension which bears little or no resemblance to the actual dimensions of the pipe. 1" Schedule 40 pipe, for instance, has an actual OD of 1.32", a wall of 0.133", and an inner diameter of 1.049". Tube dimensions are actual dimensions.

    • Pipe fittings are sized to meet pipe sizes, but not tube sizes. A 1" schedule 40 nipple will fit correctly on a 1" schedule 40 pipe, but not on a 1" OD tube.

    Tube refers to round, square, rectangular or any shape of hollow material of uniform thickness which is defined by the outside diameter and wall thickness dimensions. It is the grade of the metals and how tube is produced and processed that is important.

    • Structural Tube is generally produced using the ERW (Electric Resistance Welded) process. Identified under the Circular Hollow Section (CHS) or Hollow Structural Sections (HSS) class. Some steel mills specifically develop structural tube for roll over protective structures.

    • Mechanical Tubing is usually produced as seamless, as-welded or DOM (Drawn Over Mandrel) tube.

    Types of Tube and Pipe

    Structural Tube - high strength welded steel tubing
    Mechanical Tube - seamless, as-welded and drawn over mandrel
    Stainless Tubing and Pipe - several seamless and welding processes requiring resistance to corrosive materials
    Standard Pipe - several seamless or electric weld process, carries liquid or gas



    What the acronyms mean:

    Electric Resistance Welded (ERW)
    Cold Drawn Welded (CDW)
    Drawn Over Mandrel (DOM)
    Cold Drawn Seamless (CDS)
    Cold Rolled Electric Welded (CREW)
    Hot Rolled Electric Welded (HREW)



    Thier descriptions:

    Electric Resistance Welded (ERW)
    Cold formed, electric resistance welded tubing can be produced in round, square or rectangle shapes. ERW tube is produced by processing a flat rolled steel into strips which are cold-formed, welded and seam annealed or normalized (depending on the manufacturer). You can usually identify ERW tube by the blue strip down one side of the tube (which is the welded area). The ERW process can guarantee the weld to be as strong or stronger than the rest of the tube body. The origin from a flat strip results in a more concentric product than Cold Drawn Seamless (CDS). ERW can also be known as CREW (Cold Rolled Electric Welded).
    Typical Applications:
    Structural columns, beams, supports, heavy equipment frames with 58,000 PSI tensile.

    Cold Drawn Welded (CDW)
    Produced from a steel strip by cold forming, electric resistance welding (ERW) and cold drawing to finished dimensions, CDW is the most versatile and widely sold mechanical tubing grade. A variety of thermal treatments can be applied to alter the mechanical properties and machinability. CDW is used for a tremendous variety of machine parts where close tolerances and higher mechanical properties are needed.
    Typical Applications:
    Automotive components, shock absorbers, hydraulic cylinders, sleeves, bushings, axles and shafting.

    Drawn Over Mandrel (DOM)
    DOM is formed from strip and Electric Resistance Welded (ERW) then cold drawn through a die and over a mandrel resulting in improved inner surfaces and dimensional quality. This process, called cold drawing, may be repeated more than once to reach the planned OD, ID, or wall dimension. Multiple draws can also be used to increase the strength or improve the surface finish of the tubes. During the drawing operation, the tubes may be process annealed to increase the ductility of the material. Lower cost alternative to CDS with equal or superior physical properties.
    Typical Applications:
    Machined parts, rollers, shafts, sleeves, steering columns, axle tubes, drive shafts, bushings and is most readily adaptable in cylinder applications with a 80,000 PSI tensile.

    Cold Drawn Seamless (CDS)
    General purpose seamless tubing, which is a solid bar of carbon steel drawn over a mandrel to form the tube section. CDS allows selection of chemistry and rough tube size. Cold drawing produces higher physical properties without heat treating. Offers widest range of sizes and chemistries in mechanical tubing. Better tolerances and reduced machining allowances over Hot Finished Seamless (HFS).
    Typical Applications:
    Machined parts, bushings, spacers, bearings, rollers, shafts, sleeves and cylinders with a 75,000 PSI tensile.

    Cold Rolled Electric Welded (CREW)
    Cold rolled steels are steels that are shaped by high pressure rollers at normal temperature in the steel mill. Cold rolling work hardens the material substantially. The steel is then welded by the electric weld process. A cold rolled steel can be either a mild steel or a high carbon steel. Can also be termed as ERW (Electric Resistance Welded). See » ERW

    Hot Rolled Electric Welded (HREW)
    Hot rolled steel is steel that is rolled to size in the mill while red hot. Hot rolling steel does not work harden it as much as cold rolling. For this reason, hot rolled steel is more easily machined than cold rolled.

    What's the difference between Tube and Pipe?
    The general term for pipe was that it was primarily used for carrying gas or liquid. It was not intended for structural use because the dimensions used in describing pipe was not dimensionally accurate. Measurement was referred to its inside diameter and wall thickness. The inside diameter was a true dimension, but over the years had become "nominal" (in name only) so that when pipe size was referred to, it was an approximate inside diameter measurement with the thickness described by the term "schedule".
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    ahhem...ya, what he said...thats what i was gonna say..lol

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    comes up every year Chevy, i just go back to ZP and copy n paste whut i put there in '06

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    well at least people ask instead of building life saving devices out of old sprinkler pipe, sorry "poop pipe". Good info Sarge.

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    I build all my suspension long arms (lowers) with 2 inch 1/4 wall square tube... I beat the hell out of it and its doin just fine...
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    Dont believe the hype... trust in pipe.

    Just check your grade of pipe.

    An entertaining quote from Pirate:

    Which do you guys think will fare better in a murderdeathkill type rollover? A bare bones 6 point DOM cage with no triangulation, or a full-tilt ASTM sch40 cage full of nodes? Dont bother, i already know the answer.

    This is the main thing that has pissed me off on all these tube vs. pipe debates over the years. I got into rock crawling in 98, and started building an early Bronco with limited info from mags and the web. Around y2k i built my first cage. Because of a super limited budget, and a bunch of know nothing morons popping off about things that they have no experience with, i was under the impression that it needed to be DOM or i was going to die.

    Because of this piss poor info combined with my trailer park budget, i had to settle for a bare bones 6 point DOM that i had bent at our local dirt track builder's shop. Had i known the truth back then, i woulda got a HF kinker and modified it, and about 8 sticks of sch40 and had a super billy badass cage that could take more punishment than i could ever give it- for the same cost as the POS tube cage that i wound up with.

    There are people out there RIGHT NOW wheeling the hard shit with no cage whatsoever because they are under the false assumption that you need $800 worth of bender/dies and big$$$ tube to have a cage. Not smart, but some people would risk their lives rather than risk being made fun of on the internet by truthfully a bunch of people who are good fabricators but dont know dick about metallurgy or different grades of structural steel. Jenna Jameson might have the trickest pussy on earth but that dont make her a gynocologist.

    http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...&highlight=dom
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    Jenna Jameson might have the trickest pussy on earth but that dont make her a gynocologist.

    lolol
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    love the last line! haha. Well an over built pipe cage is better than a POS DOM cage or no cage at all for low speed wheeling i agree. Would i build a cage out of pipe? not sure, the factory one is pretty much muffler pipe. I guess if welded properly with proper geometry it might be pretty strong. I retract my previous statement about "sprinkler pipe" after a little thought. It would be freakin heavy though.

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    When your looking at tube or pipe it is really important to know what the yield strength of the steel is. Tensile strength is a bit different.

    If your getting steel from a source that cannot provide this information then you must use caution as steel strengths change over the years and multipe sources produce different strengths.

    A cage can be designed out of pipe or tube as long as you know the properties of the steel that will be used, and design accordingly. Weight would definitely become a factor because a pipe with poopy strength will require a larger section to carry the design loads.

    But we have just scratched the surface of cage design.
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    Quote Originally Posted by possumjeep View Post
    Couldent a suspension link be made out of say 2inch square wouldent it be just as stron as 2 in round if the were both .250 wall
    Even if the OD and cross-section of the two different shapes are the same, the moment of inertia of the two are different. This is because the moment of inertia is based on the geometric properties (cross-sectional shape) of the load-bearing component. The difference in the MoI means difference in resistance to bending, buckling etc.

    That's just the difference based on shape. Once you get into material properties, things get even more interesting. Metal is not metal. The strength of any given metal can vary based on carbon content (1020 vs. 1040), heat-treating processes (quenched in oil vs. water, single or multiple stages), manufacturing processes (hot rolled, cold forged, drawing, etc), finishing processes (nitriding), etc.

    If I explained things correctly, you should now be more confused than before you read my post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by STP743 View Post
    When your looking at tube or pipe it is really important to know what the yield strength of the steel is. Tensile strength is a bit different.

    If your getting steel from a source that cannot provide this information then you must use caution as steel strengths change over the years and multipe sources produce different strengths.

    A cage can be designed out of pipe or tube as long as you know the properties of the steel that will be used, and design accordingly. Weight would definitely become a factor because a pipe with poopy strength will require a larger section to carry the design loads.

    But we have just scratched the surface of cage design.

    What he said. When I was taking engineering, we learned the "limits states design" method. Essentially you could make the cage out of wood, if there was a type of wood you knew the yeild strength of, and could determine the forces you needed it to withstand in your application. It's not even enough to say square or round tube, DOM or welded seam, as those are even available in different grades, with the same nominal dimentions, consequently different properties.
    Since you can't really plan when you'll roll... could be a freak accident on the highway on the way to the trail.. and i don't know exactly what forces at what angles need to be accounted for, I probably wouldnt pick a plumbing or gas pipe that is more likely to shatter, and is heavier (higher center of gravity will only increase chance you'll NEED a cage). A cage made of this pipe could very well cause personal injury, more than it helps protect. Even the welding rod selected, and quality of weld play a part in a good cage, and lets be honest, not everyone who owns a welder has the skill to use it. even a weld that "looks nice" isnt always good. With all the variables, and considering this is a safety item, for yourself, as well as anyone you have riding with you, why start out behind.

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    this link was on pirate 4x4 i read it and seems like a good read
    http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/techart...ing/index.html

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    I use Sch 40 as long as I can read the grade on the pipe (A500 grade B or A53 B)... If I can't read the markings I will use it for less important stuff like bumpers and rock rails.

    I found some HARDOX 500 for a nice skid plate... Real good stuff
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    k so it sounds like poop pipe should be ok for stuff like a tire carrier or side steps or possibly a bumper

    square can be used for suspension links or frame rails

    and DOM should be used for cages and safty structure or any of the above

    also sounds like a well built poop pipe cage is better than no cage or a poorly built DOM cage

    thanks for the info guys

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    i think what we should all take from these is..
    if its build right you should be good..
    I dont care how strong the pipe or dom is
    if you have a asswipe welding it.. your going to have issues.
    the weekest point is your welds and design...


    on a side note does anyone know what software i can use to design my cage?

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    Bend tech Pro.

    Pirate raves about it and it was on extreme4x4 today

    http://www.2020softwaresolutions.com/prod04.htm

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    thanks chris.. i saw it today but could not remember

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    sorry, its an inside thing, but... poop pipe, haha.
    Phreak will know, oh and once you buy that bending program (the pro version of course) feel free to burn me a copy so I can have a look see.
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